Episode 2: March 5th, 2021

by | Mar 5, 2021 | Show Business Show Episodes

What’s the best way to make a profit from a podcast or online show?

Our guest for episode 2, Dave Jackson, literally wrote the book on it – “Profit From Your Podcast”.

During our chat, Dave discusses over SEVEN ways you can actually monetize your show.

And why the best – and easiest – way isn’t necessarily the route you probably think it is.

This episode is jam-packed with helpful information for anyone in the podcast/online show business (or anyone thinking about getting started).

Buckle up!

🔥🔥🔥Grab our FREE report, “Where’s The Money In Podcasting?”: https://www.getsupercereal.com/goldrush

The Show Business Show is produced by Get Super Cereal: https://www.GetSuperCereal.com

Connect with Simon & Billy at Get Super Cereal:

Connect with Dave Jackson:



Episode Transcript (Click Here To Open/Close)

Simon Aronowitz 0:00
How can you profit from your podcast or online show in 2021?

Billy Fansler 0:04
We’ll be finding out more from the man who wrote the book, Dave Jackson from the School Of Podcasting on Episode Two of The Show Business Show.

Georgia 0:12
Get Super Cereal!

Simon Aronowitz 0:30
The Show Business Show is brought to you by Get Super Cereal. I’m Simon Aronowitz, co founder of Get Super Cereal coming to you from London, England.

Billy Fansler 0:39
And I’m Billy Fansler, the other co founder of Get Super Cereal coming to you from Durham, North Carolina. On this second episode of The Show Business Show, we’re joined from Akron, Ohio by Dave Jackson from the School of Podcasting. Welcome to the show, Dave.

Dave Jackson 0:54
Guys glad to be here, ready to talk some monetization?

Billy Fansler 0:58

Simon Aronowitz 0:58
And Dave, we’re glad to…

Dave Jackson 0:59
So, first…

Simon Aronowitz 1:00
Okay. Glad to get you on screen. Glad to get all the technicals out the way. Glad to get past the issue of not noticing the equivalent of having a channel [Inaudible]. Mulligan’s are always good. And it’s great to work with someone like yourself, you know, things always go wrong in technical stuff. Doesn’t matter how much you use the system. Sometimes you can’t spot what we call in England, the bleeding obvious. And it just totally screws up your production. Right? And there’s nothing you can do about it. And except, you take a break. It turns out I spotted what was wrong five minutes after we got off the line with you yesterday. But it gave us more time to prep. So Dave, Dave Jackson of School Of Podcasting. Welcome to The Show Business Show. And yeah, I have my copy here, too. So Dave, welcome.

Dave Jackson 1:52
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

Billy Fansler 1:54
I got mine on Kindle. By the way, it is available on Kindle, as well.

Dave Jackson 1:59
There you go.

Billy Fansler 1:59

Dave Jackson 1:59
Yes, get your copy of “Profit from Your Podcast: Proven Strategies to Turn Listeners into a Livelihood”, available from all good booksellers, including those online. So…

Dave Jackson 2:00
Thank you very much!

Simon Aronowitz 2:14
Dave, we’ve got all three of us here, we have something in common. So, you started your book, you were talking about getting into, or at a young age, you were an entrepreneur and you started your own lemonade stand. Me, in junior high and a little bit in high school, I was selling counterfeit progress reports for bad students. So, I would counter…because back in the day, it was very easy to do that. Like people didn’t know how to use Word, you know? And then Simon, was selling what Shakespeare…your notes on Shakespeare right, Simon?

Simon Aronowitz 2:52
Well, it was about 1994. And I’d saved up for a very long time to buy one of these, which is a Psion Organiser. I think they were made by Timex or Seiko and sold as such in the United States. But I…

Billy Fansler 3:07
That is awesome by the way that you still have that.

Simon Aronowitz 3:11
I still, listen I saved up long and hard for this thing. It was incredibly valuable back in the day when people saved up for things. And then you wanted to recoup your investment by making money back on it. So the school teachers would let me sit there with this open in class, and type my notes during Shakespeare and during Dickens. And then I would go home and save copies and print them out. And I would sell copies of my notes to my classmates. So, that helped recoup the investment on that. But it also meant that I was one of the few people writing their assignments in the car. Or, when you get dragged off to family members for Friday night shabbat dinner, and you’re completely bored out of your mind while they’re all talking family stuff. It’s normally about people they had known but are all dead now. Certainly, in my family, I had a wedding. I had a wedding where the entire night I was sitting on a table with people, different generation, and all they talked about was people who they’d known once but were now dead. So, I would take my Scion Organiser with me and I would crank out my GCSE courseworks, when, you know I didn’t have a laptop. Laptops were incredibly expensive in 1994. They’re incredibly heavy, incredibly slow. And this thing, this was genius. So, I would hustle. Billy would hustle. Billy, what did you…I sold…I should have been smarter. I sold my notes for a pound a copy. What did you sell your your counterfeit reports for?

Billy Fansler 4:36
Even better. Parental Advisory CDs. So my…some of the people they, you know, they’d have like Parental Advisory CDs. I don’t think you guys had that in the UK but CDs that we weren’t allowed to get. So, we would…they either trade for that or it’d be like a couple bucks, you know? My guess is five bucks. I can’t really remember.

Simon Aronowitz 4:55
A couple of bucks.?

Billy Fansler 4:56
It wasn’t a lot. It wasn’t a lot. There you go.

Simon Aronowitz 5:01
It’s my Currey bell. You know…

Dave Jackson 5:03

Simon Aronowitz 5:03
I got a big whoop from Currey when I said I was buying one of those for the show, and I forgot to use it yesterday. So, sorry…last week. But yeah, I’m sure we’ll use that a few times when we hear about money.

Billy Fansler 5:08
So, the reason I brought up the lemonade stand Dave and the fact that we’re all entrepreneurs…what is it about podcasting that attracts entrepreneurs?

Dave Jackson 5:26
Oh boy, that’s a good question. I think a couple things. Number one, you reach a global audience. That’s what really sucked me in. I was doing a podcast…my very first podcast was for musicians. And I was literally doing it next to the water heater, in the basement of my brother’s house, in the middle of Nowhere, Ohio. And my first piece of voicemail came from a guy named Michael Van Laar, in Nuremberg, Germany. And I went, “Wait, what? There’s a guy on the other side of the planet and not only did he find my show, but he likes it!” So, it’s global. It’s yours.

Dave Jackson 5:59
Aisha Tyler’s a…she’s an actress. She was on The View, it’s a TV show here in the States. She’s a director. And she was doing a keynote at Podcast Movement, and she said, and she did, she did everything on her show. Because I worked for Libsyn, and she was a Libsyn customer. But she did the editing, she did the upload, she did the show notes. And she said, “That’s why.” She goes, “There aren’t many things in your life, that you can say, “This is 100% mine. I don’t have to go through a board of directors. I don’t have to go through a direct…it’s like, it’s mine. And if I want to do this, if I want to make it shorter, longer…it’s mine!” And I was like, “That’s a really good point.” So, I think that’s it. And then, it just works. As an entrepreneur, if you can come up with whatever your schedule is. And you stick to that. So for me, every Monday, the School Of Podcasting comes out. If you can then understand who your audience is, and give them what they want, they’re like, “Wow! That guy…you know, she’s really helpful!” And then, what I’ve been doing is just sharing small stories to help illustrate a point. So, if I’m making a business point…like I did one episode about how you really have to have a lot of passion about your project when you start off. Because when you first start off, you’re not gonna have any listeners. And I said, “You need to have the passion of a 16 year old.” And at the time, I had a stepson that was 16. And every time I got within five feet of that kid, he was like, “Can we go driving? Can we go driving? Can we go driving,?” And I said, “That’s the kind of passion you need to start out.” And, just by dropping that little nugget, I had members of my audience email me like, “Man, my daughter almost killed me last week, I thought she was gonna hit a wall.” And you know, and then you get the conversation going. So, when you do that, they trust you because you’re there every week. They like you because well doggone it, she’s helpful. And then when you share a little bit about yourself, they kind of feel like they know you. And so, there’s the old “know, like and trust”…so when you say, “Hi, I have a new book out. I’ve got a course out”, or whatever your services are..they’re lining up!

Dave Jackson 7:55
I think one of my favorite phone calls ever…I have a phone number on my website. And on occasion, I will answer that, most of the time it goes to voicemail, but I picked it up and this guy told me, “Hey, I’m driving from Minnesota to Georgia. I’ve been listening to you for about the past two and a half hours. And I don’t know what I’m going to podcast about, but you’re my dude.” And I was like, “That’s the best kind of phone call ever.” So, I think that’s [Inaudible] and you’re kind of planting seeds along the way, you know? Every episode is one step closer to getting that sale. The other thing it does for for businesses, especially, is when I help businesses start a podcast, the first thing I say is, “Okay, give me at least five questions that make you roll your eyes. You know, the ones you answer every day. So, for mine, I don’t hate it, but like, what’s the best microphone under 100 bucks? I get that every day. And so, what I did is I recorded an episode that addressed that question. And so when somebody says, If I’m in real estate, and they go, Well, how do I get my house appraised? Oh, here and you answer the question. You don’t blow them off, you answer the question. They are in your email or whatever. And you say also, we talked about it here on the podcast. And what happens then is they go over and they get their answer there. But you’ve also got these other questions that you have to answer every day. And so what happens, you end up with a better educated, potential customer. And when they come back, now they’re ready to buy because all that, you know, kind of business 101 stuff that they don’t understand has now been addressed. And they’re like, and so your time is now used on more valuable things that are probably going to lead to more income.

Billy Fansler 8:35
That was an excellent question…

Simon Aronowitz 9:48

Billy Fansler 9:31
Yeah, real quick, Simon…Me and Simon come from the legal marketing industry. And one of the things that we would tell lawyers is like, the lawyers would want to build up content on their website, and they weren’t ever sure what to put on. And so we tell the lawyers shoot a FAQ video, what are the top questions that you’re being asked? And then when they get asked the question, they tell the people to go to their website and then the website’s basically designed to get them to hire ’em. I haven’t actually heard that with the podcast before, too. But that’s beautiful. That’s actually excellent.

Dave Jackson 9:51
Well, the other thing is…[Inaudible]

Simon Aronowitz 10:06
That’s exactly what I was gonna say. But, just to back up, Billy was about FAQs. But the interesting thing, Dave, is that, whilst I’d say probably more than half of law firms that from our experience now have written FAQs, very few have actually done a video equivalent, and almost none of have come at it with a podcast. And this is where, from our business and marketing perspective, we see the huge opportunity from businesses starting their own regular show. But finding the right mix, where it’s not all about boring people to death about what they do. But you do have that infomercial component. But we’ll get much more into that. I cut you off, sorry, what were you gonna say?

Dave Jackson 10:48
Well, no, it’s just, it’s one of those things where it does…and I’m glad you said infomercial…it doesn’t…people think that if I talk about my business in a podcast, it’s going to turn it into an infomercial. And, it doesn’t have to be that way. Nobody turns into the Shamwow commercial or, you know, anything else… “insertinfomercial here” on purpose. So…

Simon Aronowitz 11:06
But the thing is…you know…

Dave Jackson 11:08
Go ahead…

Simon Aronowitz 11:08
You can be entertained by sitting there and watching a 30 minute commercial about the air fryer, you know? Because you’ll learn how to cook the recipes that will save you 50% of your time when you come home in the evening. I mean, look, I don’t need to watch seven…when they play it 17 times about the copper bottom, omelet maker, or whatever it is. But the first time I watch it, I’ll watch the 5-10-15 minutes to find out what is this product and how comes that nonstick and out comes…”I can use a sledgehammer on it and I won’t destroy it.” And yet, if you talk about businesses that are less salesy, and they provide great content, then you do have that soft sales message throughout everything that you put out. And if you get the balance, right, people will come back week after week to basically be sold to.

Dave Jackson 11:53
Absolutely. And I see so many people that aren’t making money with their podcast, and they’ll hire me. And I’ll be like, “Okay, what’s the goal of the podcast?” “Well, I want to drive people to my membership site.” Right? One person that wanted to get more speaking gigs. And I listened to a bunch of their episodes, and they never mentioned that they were a speaker. And I said, “Hey, like, I know the goal is to get more speaking gigs, but I didn’t hear you mentioned at once in their podcast.” And she said, “Oh, don’t be salesy.” And I go, “You don’t have to be salesy.” I said, “Here’s an easy way to sell. I go or get you some speaking gigs. I go next episode. I said, first of all, you know, if you hadn’t told me, you know, you were a speaker, I wouldn’t have got that from your podcast. I said, so next episode, say, I was speaking at a high school to some children. And this one student came up and asked me a question. And I thought, “That would be a great topic for an episode.” I go, “There’s your sales pitch.” I go, “You’re telling a story.” “But,” I said, “Now your audience knows you talk to high school kids.” And I go, “And you didn’t have to do a, ‘Hey, this Sunday, I’m gonna be speaking’, you know? Like, it doesn’t have to be a giant pitch. You just let people know.” And that oh…you know…so it doesn’t have to be super salesy.

Simon Aronowitz 13:04
And it opens up the door, so let me say, “Yesterday, when we were producing a show for a client, because that’s what we do at Get Super Cereal”…get the advertisement? “We produce video shows that are also podcasts. And we market them. Check out more information at getsupercereal.com. If you’d like a show of this visual standard and perfect transcripts and everything else.” But, we were producing a show yesterday, and we got talking to the guest afterwards, who has now started a podcast. And we were explaining to them everything that we’ve seen of the advantages of putting that podcast out weekly, because they were thinking about being sporadic, or they created a short season. And they said, well, we’ll create the next episode when we feel like there’s something to say. And we said, putting our episode out every week is how you market your previous episodes. It gives you the reason to crow. Wouldn’t you agree, Dave? That if you’ve got, if you stop, then how do you tell people about your new show? About your past episodes if you’re not telling them something new?

Dave Jackson 14:02
Yeah, one of the things I always tell people when they’re starting a podcast, I said, “Record a couple and then pick your schedule. Doesn’t matter what it is.” I’m with you. I like weekly, but I know some people do twice a month. I don’t know that I would do..I mean one a month is almost not there. But if you said, “Hey, I’ll see you next month” and it was planned that way. But whatever the schedule is, pick one and then stick with it. And what it also comes back to like, “Why am I doing this?” If I’m doing a podcast to keep my brand in front of your, you know, my customer? I don’t need to do a 40 minute podcast on a weekly basis. How about let’s do three, five minute podcast with a quick tip three times a week. I used to, it’s funny, I don’t remember the name of the show. But I remember it was brought to me by the Association of Christian Athletes. And the host’s name was Jimmy Page, because every time he said it, I was like, “The guy from Led Zeppelin?” But it was always like, it’d be something silly like,”Did you know that carrots are bla bla bla” They’d come on, they do a quick little tip, “And that’s why carrots are good for you. This show was brought to you by the Association of Christian Athletes.”

Simon Aronowitz 14:03

Dave Jackson 14:08
And you can find now… it was just so…I remember the brand, I don’t remember what the podcast was, but I remember their brand. So, it doesn’t always have to be this…you know, now if I’m trying to show off my expertise and I want to be seen as an expert…okay, now it’s time to do that deep dive. Let me strut my stuff and show you how smart I am kind of episode. It really depends on what is the goal of the podcast?

Billy Fansler 15:28
Is there a sweet spot in length of podcast?

Dave Jackson 15:32

Billy Fansler 15:33
For let’s say, for a business who’s trying to eventually monetize it and push customers to their business?

Dave Jackson 15:41
It needs to be as long as it needs to be.

Billy Fansler 15:44

Dave Jackson 15:44
Really there is no…because if my business is helping busy moms…30 minute show isn’t gonna get it because she’s a busy mom! She doesn’t have 30 minutes to listen to a podcast. I had a client once that did a show for farmers. And she sent me her first episode. And I listened to it. And I’m like, “Judy, this is good stuff. But it’s three hours long.” And she goes, “Yeah, I know. My audience is telling me it’s too short.” And I was like, “Wait, what?” And her audience were guys that were sitting on the tractor. She goes, “You don’t realize those tractors drive themselves, the guys are only there to do the turns. And once you get it turned, you push a couple buttons, and that thing keeps itself straight.” And they’re just sitting there, like with their earbuds on going, “Hey, that was pretty cool. Where’s the next one?” So, it really does matter…you know who your audience is and things like that.

Dave Jackson 15:44
You know, a lot of people in the early days of podcasting quoted 20 minutes because somebody, somewhere said the average commute in the US was 20 minutes. And to me, I’m like, “That’s great. As long as you have 20 minutes worth of material.” I’ve heard people do things like, you know, the Dave Jackson Power Hour, and it’s great, except I got 15 minutes worth of material in 45 minutes of me talking about my cat. And like, nobody wants to 10 or 15 minutes, 15 minutes to program 45 minutes of commercials. I mean, I think you put on a three hour episode of Rogen, for example, or No Agenda. And if you’ve got a 20 minute drive, what a wonderful cliffhanger. You just want to get the next lot of free time so you can bounce back into that show and find out what they were going to say.

Simon Aronowitz 17:13
So, pop quiz for you, Dave. I think you’ll know the answer. Billy, maybe you will. But what was the, in my mind I think, the top overnight show on AM that truckers would listen to… what’s the top overnight show? Has been for 20 plus years.

Dave Jackson 17:31
Oh, man, it used to be maybe Art Bell? With the weird [Inaudible]

Simon Aronowitz 17:35
Oh, Bell- Coast to Coast? Yeah.

Dave Jackson 17:36

Simon Aronowitz 17:37
Three hours of what the hell are you talking about?

Dave Jackson 17:42

Simon Aronowitz 17:44
Lizard people living inside the earth. And they come out and they feast on children. And they also conspired to start World War II and sink the Titanic. And they’re also firing Jewish…no, no, I won’t say it. Actually even I couldn’t get away with it. No, no, no, no, space lasers, whatever it is. But incredibly popular, created its own movements, if you like, and people will sit and listen to it, the truckers love it. Because it’s three hours of, their driving through the night, they got to listen to something interesting. So Dave, I’ve got a couple of, just a couple of pages marked out in your book here. Because we like when we’ve done shows with clients. And when we put content out for ourselves and companies that we’ve worked at, we like a framework, because it makes it much simpler to explain to people, “Here’s my understanding, here’s my expertise, and I’ve grouped it into these particular areas.” And when you understand it’s three, five or seven things, now you understand the lay of the land. So, we’re really pleased that under “How To Make Money With a Podcast”, chapter four, page 31, there are seven things on this list.

Dave Jackson 18:54
That’s it.

Simon Aronowitz 18:54
And maybe [Inaudible]…

Dave Jackson 18:55
It’s just a matter of…

Simon Aronowitz 18:57
There may be eight…

Dave Jackson 18:57
That’s something where I just was like, “Hey, here’s where we’re gonna go.” And, it’s the teacher me my backgrounds in teaching. I taught in the corporate world for decades. So, it’s the whole tell them what you’re going to tell them, tell them and then tell them what you told them.

Simon Aronowitz 19:09
Tell them what you told them. Yeah.

Dave Jackson 19:11
Yeah. So it’s like, here’s the seven ways. And now we’re gonna dive deeper into all seven of these. So.

Simon Aronowitz 19:16
So, what we’ll do is, we’re going to dive deeper into the seven but let me start off with just highlighting the list. And the people who are listening, this is going to be on screen. Of course if you’re watching, you can also listen to me tell you all of this while you’re driving or in the gym, because we’re available on all major podcast networks. Links are available at www.showbusiness.show. So, how to make money with a podcast number one, sell your own products. And really Dave, that’s where we came from. With podcasting, was we thought having a show was a great platform for businesses to promote themselves where the barriers are down. But we’ll get back into that. Number two, live events. And that was something I hadn’t thought about so much, perhaps because we’ve been locked down for nearly a year, there’s almost no such thing as live events. Number three, sell other people’s products, affiliates. And I’m actually surprised that you put that above number four, but I guess it’s much easier to get into that with a smaller audience. Because number four is sponsors and sponsorship. And that’s where most of the money is perceived to be right now. And, [Inaudible]

Dave Jackson 20:22
Perceived to be?

Simon Aronowitz 20:20
Yeah, and with the announcements from Spotify last week that we got into with James Cridland, Spotify is trying to become the Uber of podcasting. But if you look at how much streamers make when their music is played on Spotify, okay, you’re not going to get much of ad share. Spotify has given me the opportunity to monetize, but what are you going to do go exclusive with Spotify? There are other things coming and we did touch on them last week, Adam Curry, for example. Number five, donations and crowdfunding, which does play in with podcasting 2.0. But I swear, I think that might be point eight, Dave. Number six is opportunities. And yeah, you’re talking about opening doors, creating relationships, networking, opening up so many possibilities, because you have a show, the opportunities that it creates, and actually they start beating your door down when you get it right. You don’t even have to go looking for them, sometimes they’ll come find you. And number seven, which is actually, because we’re not going to work backwards, but number seven is free stuff. Free stuff. So, we’re going to start with our first clip, Dave. Just because this is kind of entertaining. So, we’ve got a clip of your show. And this is you, in I think, January 2019, talking about the Rodecaster.

Dave Jackson 21:50
Hey, it’s post production, Dave popping this in here at the beginning, still using the Rode Procaster Microphone. And I just realized nowhere in this episode, did I say thank you to the Rode company. I reached out and said, “Hey, can I have one of these two to play with?” And not only did they send me the Rodecaster Pro, they sent me two Rode Procaster Microphones and two stands in a backpack, was completely awesome! And made a phenomenal first impression. So, if you’ve ever listened to the Podcast Rodeo Show, that show is all about making a good first impression. And I definitely am super impressed with the Rode company in the effort they took to get me this unit. Also wanted to say this entire episode is about the Rodecaster Pro. And so, if you’re happy with your equipment, this episode may not be for you. If you’re a person doing interviews over the phone, you definitely want to listen.

Simon Aronowitz 22:54
Okay, so Dave, well done scoring a free Rode Rodecaster Pro at the beginning of 2019.

Dave Jackson 23:01
Yet, the key to that is if you want free stuff, do not contact the sales guys. Because they will try to sell you one. That’s their job. The marketing team’s job is to get the word out about the product. So, you have to find the marketing team. And I’ve sat on hold for hours at times, because you’ll call, if you can get a phone number to the switchboard of the front. Like, I need to talk to someone in your marketing department. And they’ll be like, “What is this about?” And I’m like, “Oh, it’s about the new product. And I’m Dave Jackson from the School Of Podcasting.” And, you know, in what’s great about it is I never asked for free stuff. I’m like, “Can I have one to play with?” And then I’ll ship it back. And what happens is when you contact them like, “Hey, I really liked it, I made a YouTube video about it. Where do I ship this back to?” That’s the best phrase when you hear them go, “Oh, just keep it.” And you’re like, okay, I guess [Inaudible]

Simon Aronowitz 23:53
Yeah. Plus it’s got juice on it

Billy Fansler 23:55
So, that’s the advice…that you should have given to the person in the next clip.

Simon Aronowitz 24:03
Well, hang on, I want to read something to you first. I want to read something to you first. This is the dedication to Adam Curry and Dave Weiner, who invented podcasting, “Thank you for the global megaphone that enables anyone to reach the world.” That’s the first sentence of your dedication in your book. So now, what we have is a clip from Sunday’s No Agenda. By the way, that clip that we played of you Dave, talking about the Rodecaster, that was January 2019. That was School Of Podcasting Episode 653 for people who are listening and can’t see the episode number on the screen, that was Episode 653, if you want to go back and listen to three opinions on the Rodecaster. So now we’ve got a clip from Sunday’s No Agenda, which was episode number 1325. Make sure you’re listening closely, Dave. This is a three minute clip but I think you’ll like it.

Adam Curry 24:52
To commemorate the theremin’s 100th anniversary, we are proud to introduce Claravox Centennial. Okay? And this thing has USB-MIDI.

John C. Dvorak 25:03
Oh, yeah!

Adam Curry 25:04
It has, you know, obviously inboard onboard amplifier, it has XLR out. It’s got really fantastic processing all on board. And, I think it’s, is it brass? The sensors? I think they’re made of brass. Only $1499. I’m gonna save. I’m so excited about this.

John C. Dvorak 25:33

Adam Curry 25:34

John C. Dvorak 25:35
That’s reasonable. A high-end instrument like that.

Adam Curry 25:38
Yeah, and you need another 200 bucks for the stand. But…

John C. Dvorak 25:42
Oh. Well, now you’re talking rip-off [Inaudible].

Adam Curry 25:41
See, versus this story. Just to give you an idea. So, I will go out and buy this theremin and I will practice and I will become good. I will. It’s exactly right for my hands. I’ve tried piano, I’m musical, I can’t get it right. But if I can just float my hands in the air.

John C. Dvorak 25:51
Oh, yeah.

Adam Curry 26:01
I can do this. So the product I have always wanted, though, was the Rode Procaster or podcaster or whatever they call it.

John C. Dvorak 26:10
The one you want, the one that you believe…And I…and normally…I’m not going to get into an argument about this. Because I’m in agreement with you. You should get one free. I mean, that’s the idea of being in a situation that you’re in.

Adam Curry 26:24
Well especially since [Inaudible]…

John C. Dvorak 26:25
Your free things should come to you because you need…they need to get your blessing.

Adam Curry 26:29
Well, first of all, I designed this product for them…failed. Failed at execution. And this looks very similar in the, in execution and design even, to some degree, in what we were doing. So yeah, I thought, you know, maybe they sent me…I have some ideas. It’s pretty close to perfect. I could test it, I could use it. I got a note…

John C. Dvorak 26:51
You could probably take it, come up with a few design changes that would be valuable. More valuable than the cost of the item I might add.

Adam Curry 26:58
Correct! So, I get a note from one of our Knights, who was a dealer for Rode products. He said, “Adam, I’m a dealer. Their head office and manufacturing facilities are about 30 minutes from us.” So, I presume this dude is in, this Knight is in Australia. I spoke to them about getting you a Rodecaster Pro. I sent them a tape from the show of you talking about it.

John C. Dvorak 27:19
Well, this sounds good. This sounds promising. It sounds like it’s headed in the right direction.

Adam Curry 27:23
And they sent it, they forwarded it to marketing and I got a, “We will not be pursuing this further at this time” response.

John C. Dvorak 27:35

Adam Curry 27:37
Can you believe it?

John C. Dvorak 27:39
It’s got to be some “not invented here” thing going on?

Adam Curry 27:43
Yeah, but I just wanted [Inaudible].

John C. Dvorak 27:44
Yeah, I know exactly what it is already.

Adam Curry 27:47
All right.

John C. Dvorak 27:50
Yeah, it goes around and around, the executives here, “What’s the deal here with this crazy guy?” “Well, he kind of like designed it..almost-bleep-he’s gonna sue us. Stop all communications with this guy. He’s gonna sue us. He wants to get ahold of one. He won’t even buy one, the cheap bastard.

Adam Curry 28:06

John C. Dvorak 28:06
He’s gonna look at it and see some…he probably has patents. We gotta..don’t even look into it. Don’t talk to him. That’s what happened.

Adam Curry 28:14
Well that’s really sad. Oh, well. Anyway, screw you, Rode. Screw you.

John C. Dvorak 28:22
You used to also use a Rode mic and you were quite happy with it?

Adam Curry 28:25
Yep, no, no more. It’s now Electro-voice. They’re my new friends. Let’s take a look at what’s going on around the world.

Billy Fansler 28:35
He was talking to a dealer.

Simon Aronowitz 28:39
No, that, they were talking to marketing, Billy. He was talking to marketing. So Dave, how is it that Adam Curry and John C Dvorak, where Curry invented podcasting. And they have, according to Adam between 800,000 and 1.4 million listeners to No Agenda, the biggest podcast that nobody’s ever heard of. How is it, the guy with his status and influence and still going strong and still trying to have an influence on the industry? How is it that he can’t get a Rodecaster, but you did?

Dave Jackson 29:10
Two things. One, he…the person at Rode is an idiot. I mean, we’ll just say that. But the second one was, I started and I mean, I just stalked them. The minute I heard about this, it hadn’t even come out yet. I started stalking them. And I’m like, “I have your target audience. The people that want to buy that, listen to me.” And again, and I didn’t ask for a free one. I’m like, “Can I get one to play with?” I didn’t say I wanted to keep it. So I am always about I’ll ship it back. I ship a lot of stuff back but on occasion I get to keep stuff. So, and I did so when a product is launched, there is kind of a window where marketing is just going crazy. And it may have been that Adam contacted them, you know, six months after, you know it had come out and the big bonanza blitz. Now it’s still stupid. When you have the guy that invented podcasting going, “Can I get one of those?” And he can’t. That’s ridiculous because his audience is multiple, multiple multiple times bigger than mine. So, that’s a good question. It seems odd, but don’t let it get you down. And then you just go, “Or I’ll just go talk to Zoom and get a PA.” So…

Billy Fansler 30:21
There you go.

Dave Jackson 30:21
Yeah. That’s [Inaudible].

Simon Aronowitz 30:24
Well, I mean, it just, I mean, before we went for the recording, we were talking about things like Squadcast, and Riverside.fm, StreamYard is another one. Because you were saying that StreamYard is much more simple than what we’re doing. Obviously, the Rodecaster Pro makes it simpler for people to have, ideally, in some circumstances, just a single device to take care of everything. And then I was listening to your show, Dave, the old shows and putting it together, you know, you would talk about how that they’d improved it so that you could record to the computer. And there wasn’t, I think, multiple tracks in the beginning. So, they’ve taken all that and but a lot of that is firmware really. But yeah. But you know, when you get into something more complicated, like what we’re doing, then something that’s only $279 isn’t, isn’t going to cut the mustard. I mean, we’ve got a full TV production suite running in the cloud. That is used by TV stations and and other major companies. And we put it in the cloud. So that’s decentralized, and also so we’ve got big bandwidth. But Rodecast. What, is it a good way to get started with the Rodecaster? Or do you think there are better ways?

Dave Jackson 31:33
I think it’s overkill, for a lot of people. The thing I recommend right now is the zoom Podtrak P4. Number one, it’s $400 cheaper, and minus the really cool effects that are built into the Rodecaster, it does everything it does. So, if I want to tie a phone into this, I can do that. If I want, I could have two people in the room with me, one person on the computer and one person via phone, get separate tracks and have it mixed down. And I still have little jingle buttons, which again, most people never use. And the beauty of that is that device seven years ago would have been way over $1,000. So, I love the fact that companies are now putting out products specifically designed for podcasters. So, but in many cases, if you’re doing a solo show, and maybe you have a co host that’s across the pond, you can get by with a Samsung Q2U. Sixty-nine bucks, you’re in the game, because I can plug this into my computer directly via USB. We can use any of the of the things we just mentioned, Squadcast, StreamYard, whatever. Get my recording, and you’re in. And at that point, it’s only you know, up from there. So, and that’s one of the things I had to be careful with you don’t realize that you have influence, at times. It’s just you talking to your friends. And I had a client of mine once and I asked him, “Mike, well, let’s talk about what kind of gear you have.” He goes, “Oh, I’ve got I’ve got a Zoom H6. I’ve got this, I’ve got that. And I’ve got a Rodecaster Pro.” and I go, “Whoa, you have a H6 and a Rodecaster?” And I go, “Why did you buy a Rodecaster?” I go, “Because if you’re going to be doing remote interviews…”, where he was actually going to go out this is pre COVID, “…and do interviews, you can just do that with the H6.” And he said, “Oh, you said they were cool.” And I went, “Oh, wait, hold on this microphone’s…” And I was like, so that’s where I now say this is who this is for? And you know, if I’m talking about the Electro-voice RE320. And I say, “Yeah, I really liked this microphone.” I almost need to say, “But if you’re happy with your Samsung Q2U, it’s really not that much better.” Because people will go, “Oh, well, Dave said to do that.” And I’m like, “Wait, hold on, don’t go, you know, getting a second mortgage so you can get a Rodecaster because you probably don’t need it.”

Simon Aronowitz 33:46
That’s the thing, because actually sometimes maintaining your equipment, as I can speak to firsthand, that can get incredibly expensive. So you don’t have the luxury of buying something to play with it, because it sounded cool. Because actually just maintaining your stock of equipment can can be expensive. My Apple is not an inexpensive item to repair when it goes wrong, which is why it will be replaced eventually with something that is modular, and not got an apple on it. But we’ll move on. We’ll move on from that one, Dave. So, if we talk about podcasting profits, and if we get back to this chapter 4, page 31 in your book, “Profit from Your Podcast: Proven Strategies to Turn Listeners into a Livelihood” by Dave Jackson. Page 31, How To Make Money With a Podcast. Number one, sell your own products. So you put this at the top of the list. And as we said, coming at this as marketers, where we think that a podcast or a video show is the perfect platform because you create the reason why you’re putting something out every week. This is the first thing that businesses don’t understand. If they put out a video randomly or they put out an offer randomly. Why is that there? What’s the reason for doing it? And also they don’t have the platform, they don’t have the infrastructure, they don’t have the branding, to say, “Okay, I can put something out every week.” So it becomes a struggle, it doesn’t make sense or fits in with their business. Why are they creating content, for example, when they’re in the business of, say, selling plants. And, you know, bedding flowers at a garden center or nursery, for example. But if they do a gardening show, then they can promote their products and services and what they’ve got in a special, every week and as a reason for saying, you know they can make it can make perfect sense with if you’re watching today, this offer is only good until closing on Friday. Because it’s the holiday weekend or something like that. So we think that especially with the video aspects, a lot of businesses have something that’s visual, that they can demonstrate it, they can show it. And we’ll get more into why video later. But when we really think that sell your own products is number one, but Dave, break it out for us a bit more. How do you see it as the number one moneymakers? We’re not coming at it from, you know, a podcast host first. We’re not saying we want to start a show because we’ve got this yearning to have our voice heard. We come at it as you know, for businesses, this is a great way to get our message out there further in order to grow my business. So I might not make money as with sponsors on my show. But if I can increase the traffic to my store, if I can increase the ticket price, if I can increase the number of people going to my website, or I can activate more than for holiday specials, then I profit and what I spend on my show, I’m more than get back from out of the business.

Billy Fansler 36:40
And how intentional do you actually have to be with it too, like, I mean, does it just happen through osmosis that because you have a show and you have a pool of listeners, you’re going to be promoting your business? Or do you need to really intentionally put your business in front of the show?

Dave Jackson 36:58
I, one of the questions I asked people now, is because I used to say what’s the goal of the podcast? And you’d get people that would say things like, “Well, if I could, if the downloads keep going up, that would be great.” And I’m like, “okay.” I don’t ask that anymore. because really what I was asking is, “Is this a hobby? Or is it a business?” Because that person would say yes, as long as the downloads go up? And then three months later, they’re like, “Hey, I’m not making any money at this.” And I’m like, “You didn’t say it was a business. You said you just wanted to have more downloads, and you’re getting more downloads. Congratulations, you’re successful!” “Oh, well, no, I was hoping to make some extra money with this.” You didn’t…so now I ask, “Is this a hobby?” And there’s nothing wrong with a hobby. I mean, I got hobbies. I got I ride my bike every day. I haven’t made a dime with it. You know? So it’s, you can have a hobby or it you know, or is this meant to make some income? Because it shapes the content. Because then you have to go “Okay, well, do you have a product?” No. “Great. Do you have a built in audience?” No. “Okay. Do you have any kind of affiliate that would tie in with your content?” “Well, my content is empowering stories that lead people to want to do more.” Great. There’s no product that ties…I can’t sell, you know, motivation in a can. “So are you a life coach?” No. Okay, that leaves crowdfunding. You know so, there are times when I look at people and go, “Really what you just described is a hobby. That’s not a business, you know?” And if you don’t have a crowd, I mean crowdfunding, I say in the book, it’s crowdfunding. It’s not fund crowding, you have to get the crowd first. But going back to your question, if you look at advertising, and you take, let’s go high, let’s, let’s take $35. And there’s a thing from radio, God bless radio. If you get $35, they call it CPM, it means “Price per 1000 downloads”. That’s, if we round up, that’s four cents a download, three and a half cents a download. How many downloads would you have to have to…if you sold a product for 50 bucks? I mean, that’s a lot of downloads. And most podcasts when they first start out, do not have a lot of downloads, especially if you have a niche and this is where the power of the niche comes into play. Let’s say I’m going to start a podcast on building confidence, because we all need more confidence. Maybe. Okay, great. I’m gonna do a show about confidence in but who’s it for? Well, anybody that that needs confidence, okay, what if I say, confidence for parents? Okay, now we’ve got we whittled down some of our audience, but what if I go, “Wait a minute…how about podcasting for new parents?” Ooh, now you’ve got people going, “I think I’m ruining my kid. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’ve never…” Okay, now let’s go confidence for new interracial parents. Oh, now you’ve really scaled it back. But now you can talk about just those things that only they are going to face and those people are going to go, “I thought I was the only person going through that.” That’s one of the things that I always say “Don’t underestimate the power of the niche.” And if you have something now, a product that fits that niche, and that sponsor is trying to get to that, you know, target audience, you can charge a heck of a lot more than $35 per thousand downloads. But the whole making your own product, it’s just more profitable. It’s because you have to sell [Inaudible]…

Simon Aronowitz 40:07
S,o you’ve got the “know, like, and trust” from the audience.

Dave Jackson 40:10

Simon Aronowitz 40:10
So instead of trying to sell somebody who, you know, instead of doing a Helix Mattress read, you’re gaining the know, like and trust. So they’re beginning to like what you have in your perspective. So if you’re the expert, and so there’s a lot of, you know, online training online courses, I mean, especially with what you do with School Of Podcasting, but it doesn’t just have to be that Dave, it could be that they know like, and trust you when you talk about how to how to decorate what we call the in UK decorate putting up wallpaper and painting. And in the end, they phone you and say, I want you to paint on wallpaper my house. Really, it can be that simple.

Dave Jackson 40:45
And many times, they will hand you what they want. Like when I started the School Of Podcasting after a while people go, “Hey, can you listen to my podcast and tell me if it’s any good?” And I did that for free. And then, it also that dawned on me, “Oh, spending three hours and making nothing.” And I like I can’t do this forever. So I said, “Hey, if you want me to do this, I’m going to do this with a friend of mine that’s from radio, it’s $200, you get a podcast consultant, we’re gonna go over your entire show.” And we do that, it’s reduced consulting. Because if you hired us both, it would be much more than that. But we’re also going to use us reviewing your show to get more consulting clients. So, that was one where the audience was brought to me. Then somebody said, “Do you know anybody that edits this stuff? I just want to talk into a microphone.” And I just this year, 16 years later said, “You know what, maybe I should start my own production company.” So, that’s something…Daniel J. Lewis, I mentioned him in the book, he does the Audacity to Podcast. And he had, he just saw where people were really into reviews of all sorts of and he just made products for the audience that he attracted. He originally wanted to sell them web design services, and the audience he attracted, wasn’t going to pay for that. And so he then looked at his audience, said yeah, people use free software. I’m not gonna spend $1,000 on a website, but they might spend, you know, a couple 100 bucks to get listed on Apple hire or, you know, to track all your reviews and things like that. So we just looked at, like, what do they need? What’s their biggest pain point and then made that product. So that’s really where selling your own stuff can be much more profitable than sponsorship. And we all, I think, because of radio, we all just go, “I’m gonna start a podcast and get sponsors.” And I’m like, “You can, you can try it.”

Simon Aronowitz 42:22
Well, yeah. And what are you gonna do, you’re gonna ruin the content of your show for three and a half, point three, five cents of a download. I mean, you know, now it’s not a pure show it so you got a Helix Mattress read, or whatever it is, because, you know, you’ve got what 37 downloads. And that’s what you’re doing. So we’ve got a clip from from your show, Dave, number 764, which was just this last weekend, I believe. That [Inaudible]…

Dave Jackson 42:52
Should be fine.

Simon Aronowitz 42:53
Can you break your podcast? Yep. So we’ve got this clip here. And this, this caught my ear and what we’ll talk about this when we,…

Dave Jackson 43:01
I’m also sniffing the idea of doing coaching calls on this show. Now what do I mean by this, and this is something I’ve heard Natalie Eckdahl do. And that is where you bring on somebody to basically do a podcast coaching call, and it’s free. And in return for you getting free coaching, I get to use your call on a podcast. Now, might be this podcast, it might be your podcast consultant. Not really sure yet. And this is one of those things where we’ve kind of talked about this, it’s your show, you can do whatever you want. And I’m thinking of giving this a shot. If you’re interested in this, send me an email, you can just email dave@schoolofpodcasting.com and put in your first name, and then coaching call, and I will send you an application. Again, I’m just sniffing this idea right now, and would love to see what happens. Because you don’t know unless you try. And to chime in on that, I have no idea what I’m doing. This is one of those, you don’t know unless you try. So, I made a form that basically, because I’m looking for low hanging fruit…if this is going to be a coaching call, I need somebody with low hanging fruit. And so it’s going to be like, “What’s your biggest struggle? What’s the goal?” It’s just like a four or five question survey. And I’m looking for somebody that I can go, “Oh, I can definitely fix that. That’s an easy one.” And if it is, I’m going to do a coaching call and then bring you on. The other thing that will do..it’s another form of content. And I mentioned Natalie. Natalie does Bizchix, it’s BIZCHIX. And Natalie, did the, when she got into podcasting, everybody was doing interviews. I mean everybody so she started doing interviews. The problem was when you do an interview, it points your guest as the expert. It doesn’t point you as the expert. And so she started doing solo shows. And I always…and she’s the one that said, when you do a solo show, you grow your influence when you do an interview show you grow your network, so do both. And she was, I heard her on her show, and she started doing coaching calls. And I was I’ve known Natalie for years. And she said, I should have done this years ago, she goes, because my audience went, “Oh, that’s what coaching is.” Like, they didn’t know what it was. And so she’s like, so she does these coaching calls with people. And it’s usually a fairly generic problem that she fixes, again, kind of low hanging fruit. And so when I saw Natalie do this, I’m like, I might try this. And it might then, you know, enhance or grow my coaching business. So that’s an, you know…[zinaudible]

Simon Aronowitz 45:44
Well, I think it will, I mean, I thought about this more than a decade ago, when I was doing marketing for small businesses in the UK. And I thought, “If only we could do a fly on the wall show of what we’re doing to make things right, I would get more clients from people watching that show and understanding how the sausage is made.” And saying, “Well, good gosh, I don’t want to actually do it myself. But I see how you’re doing it. And I see what the results are. And I hear the client talking about the impact and the difference to them. And I’ve seen that transformation through the pain that you’ve sold me.” And so, if you’re a consultant and you bring onto your show somebody who’s in pain, and then through the hour’s treatment, you solve that problem, or it’s serialized, you’re displaying for everybody else who’s either watching the show or listening to the show, this is a transformation I can deliver. And you can have that as well and by the way, if you’re interested find out more by going to this web address. You might tell them the price or Dave, in this case, your call to action, again, if somebody is interested in free coaching, all they have to do to get the free coaching is be prepared to have it be shared as content on your show, which show to be determined. I think you said your call to action was your email address. You want to give that out again, if anybody’s listening?

Dave Jackson 46:55
Sure. It’s dave@schoolofpodcasting.com. And what’s funny is I say put your name and then coaching call. And they’ve got the dave@schoolofpodcasting.com. Nobody has had the right title. Yeah, but that’s fine. I just, it’s always interesting to see how directions get skewed. When you give things out over the internet.

Billy Fansler 47:14
It’s a it’s a competency test.

Dave Jackson 47:17
That’s it, but and that’s, like I said, I don’t know. And, and the people I’ve had a few reach out and I’m like, hey, just for the record. I’m not sure what I’m doing here. I’m trying this and realize that you may or may not be selected. And if I don’t select you, it’s not a problem, you know, but you just try it and it could blow up in your face, I’ve had shows that I thought were gonna be great. And then you know, I did a show with my ex wife called “The Dates from Hell Show”. And the whole point of it was to, we had, as an affiliate we had, I think, was match.com, and [Inaudible] like that. And we didn’t think it through. It was just one of those where we said, “That would be funny. Let’s do a podcast.” So, zero planning. We get together, and we both had like maybe three stories of just horrible dates that went wrong. And we thought the audience would then chime in with their bad stories. Except, oh, that’s right, when you start a podcast, you don’t have an audience. And so we had no people sending in the stories. We ran out of stories. And the other thing that I was like, “Well, what was I thinking?” was, we would share these horrendous stories. She had some really creepy guys, you go out on dates with her. And then at the end of this horrendous story where you’re like, “Oh, my gosh,” you go, “Oh, by the way, if you’d like to start dating, go to match.com.” And it was like, “Who would want to go on a date after this story?” So sometimes a little planning as opposed to “Hey, let’s start a podcast. That’s a good idea…let’s go!” It’s so that’s…[Inaudible]

Billy Fansler 48:40
Dave, you mentioned in a past podcast that you had tried, I think he said like 30 different shows. And one of the shows was cooking. You tried a cooking show? And it turned out you hated to cook. What do you think it is, though, about School Of Podcasting, that stuck?

Dave Jackson 49:05
Three things. I’m kind of a geek, so I have my original degree was in electronic engineering. Then I got my teaching degree. So, I kind of you know, I was, I mean, back this makes me sound horrendously old, but I used to teach people how to surf the internet. I used to teach people how to send email because they didn’t know what it was. I mean, I’ve been doing this a while and helping people understand technology. So I’m kind of a geek. And then the fact that again, the global reach just blows my mind. I mean, I love accents like nobody’s business. So, every time I hear a different dialect, come through a voicemail mic comes. I’m like this is so cool. And then the third one is my I also I’m a guitar player, I’m kind of a creative guy. And so the fact that I can do whatever I want, and, you know, let the chips fall where they may. Right now I started in 2020. I now start off the show with somewhere. I’m trying to keep them under a minute, but some sort of little story that then ties in with whatever the podcast is about. And I was like, “Huh? I wonder if that’s gonna go over?” Because it really goes against my get to the meat and potatoes. Like, I’m going against my own advice. But I’m like, but if you’re going…

Simon Aronowitz 50:14
You’re constanly experimenting.

Dave Jackson 50:16
Yeah, that’s it! Because how do you know, you know? And I always say, one of my constant things that remind people your podcast is a recipe, it’s not a statue. And you don’t know, you know, if you what happens if I put a little more salt on this? Actually, that makes the flavor, you know, and if you had too much, you’ve ruined it. But you’re not gonna know. And so you’re gonna break a couple eggs when you make an omelet. So, you know, you just try it and see what works. And if it doesn’t work, you…

Simon Aronowitz 50:42
Buy a big box of eggs.

Dave Jackson 50:46
That’s it.

Simon Aronowitz 50:46
Buy a big box of eggs. So Dave, you were saying that, you know, you start a podcast and you have no audience. I mean, actually, we’ve, we’ll keep the numbers to ourselves. But we were pleasantly surprised by the downloads that we had on Episode One of The Show Business Show. The downloads on our trailer arecactually insane. We don’t understand, understand why. We’ll have to talk to Blubrry? Because we…

Billy Fansler 51:08
Dave, have, have you experienced that? S`o we we put the trailer up for the show about a week before the first episode and like…

Simon Aronowitz 51:19
Three days.

Billy Fansler 51:20
Yeah, three days. And we’re like three days can’t be right. Like, how the hell can we have that many downloads? I mean, any insight on that?

Dave Jackson 51:30
Yeah, it’s number one, you can’t predict it. And because you don’t know who’s listening, you have no idea who’s listening. I’ll give you an example I and then I’m gonna go back to where do those downloads come from, but just to, you know, bring that point home, I do a local Northeast Ohio meetup for podcasters. We’ve never had more than maybe six people. One of those guys got me on TV. So you don’t know who’s listening. So if you put out a trailer, and some super influential person with a giant email list, sees that trailer and says, oh, man, my audience would love this. Boom, here they go. I get this all the time working for a podcast media host, I get oh my gosh, my numbers are down. What’s wrong? And I also get, Oh, my gosh, my numbers are up. What’s wrong? And what happens? I mean, I use an app called Overcast. And my, there’s like a “Download All” button in there. And when I find a podcast, and I hear like two episodes, I’m like, “Man, this is really good. I’m going for the “Download All” button.” and they’ll say, “Do you want to download all 64 episodes of the show?” And I’m like, “Absolutely!” Boom! Well, you get three people doing that. There’s 180 downloads that came out of nowhere.

Simon Aronowitz 52:40
The numbers are still crazy. And one thing that we did do, because we didn’t launch the show in a vacuum, and we’re still, we’re still playing catch up. Because we’re finding our own rhythm. We’re prioritizing our clients first because you know that pays the bills. But as we were saying to the same guy that we mentioned to you earlier, I said, “What’s the most difficult thing about your podcast?” He said, “Getting it started.” I said, “Exactly!” It’s easier now. Now, the worst, the most difficult thing is figuring out the format and, and getting to where you got your first episode recorded, and then out, and a website and your social. And then you start to add in the weekly email blast, you add in the transcript in the show notes, you add in more value and all of that. And what we didn’t keep it to ourselves, but we didn’t do an awful lot to launch our first show and episode. But the one thing we did do Dave was we paid for a note read on Podcasting 2.0 podcast with Adam Curry and Dave Jones. And it was it was Reader’s Digest, because I wrote a long note and Dave cut it a little bit short, but it got the word out. And I did say to Dave, afterwards, he was he was concerned he might be compromising some private information. I said, Dave, it was written to be read out. Maybe it was too long. I apologize. We’ll keep the next one briefer. But, we know that for what we’re covering, and where we’re coming at the material, the audience of Podcasting 2.0 is exactly who we want to be talking about and talking to. And we think, you know, I was saying point eight might be a new one on your list. I wonder whether you would count streaming value, value for value satoshis, what they’re trying to build in the podcast index of sending micro payments as you listen. Or boosting as an integral part of the listening experience whether you might list that separately rather than crowdfunding and donations and subscriptions. But hold that thought for a moment because we’ve got an…

Dave Jackson 54:35
Yeah, well, can I back up one thing you said though?

Simon Aronowitz 54:38
Okay, go for it. Yeah.

Dave Jackson 54:40
The hardest part of launching, the hardest part of a podcast is not launching it. I can burp into this phone right now, and it will be in Apple by next week. Launching a good podcast is hard. So, I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m like just realize, creating…it’s the same thing…writing the book isn’t hard, getting people to read it as hard. Launching a podcast is not hard, getting people to listen to it. That’s the struggle. So, [Inaudible]…

Simon Aronowitz 55:06
We’ll have to see if people come back in Episode Two, because obviously, every parent thinks that their child is beautiful, and a genius, that everything that you did, we think we’re doing a good show. But at the, we have had some nice feedback. But you you hope people aren’t blowing smoke, they’re not shining you on. But that, yeah, the proof will be in whether they keep coming back. So here’s another clip, again, from your 764, just at the weekend. And this is about monetization.

Dave Jackson 55:37
Now, I want you to notice where I’m putting this segment, this is the thing at the very end, because I’m going to talk about how the sausage is made. And I can’t remember, I know I’ve talked about this on some other shows. I don’t know that I’ve talked about it on this one. And that is I’m going to be moving the School Of Podcasting to a new platform I currently use Thinkific. To make a long story short, think if ik even though they say unlimited customers, they also charge you for the more customers you get, the more students I guess we should say. And after looking at Teachable, and Podio, Padia and Kajabi. At this point, I think I’m leaning towards Podia. Teachable is really cool. Kajabi is just, it’s cool. But no, it’s not cool enough to warrant the price that they do. And Podia is kind of Kajabi light, in a way. So right now they’re leading the pack. And so as we go forward in the future, you’re going to hear me do some things where I am kind of focusing on monetization, focusing on communities, things of that nature. So if you wonder, hey, why is the show kind of steering in that direction, that’s what’s going on in my life.

Simon Aronowitz 56:51
So again, for people who can’t see the lower third on the screen, that’s School Of Podcasting, Episode 764. Just came out in the last few days. And Dave, I picked that up. Not so much, because the conversation about technology, because this is where you lose most people who want the benefits of this, they don’t want to build a membership site at all. And as we’ve mentioned in James Cridland last week, Billy and I have been responsible for a number of membership sites professionally. You know, and looking after clients in our previous employment, it’s not straightforward. But if you know how that works, it’s like, understanding where you made the mistake in the mixing desk or anything else, you know, stuff happens and and you fix it, becomes a lot easier. And that’s one of the other things that we offer to our clients and to potential clients is we can manage, set up and manage your membership site for you. But this is what I talk about Dave, because for a lot of podcasters, and we’ve got a clip coming up from Stephen Crowder, but you you know, like, well, Curry and Dvorak don’t have memberships membership sites as such. But Tim Poole does, Stephen Crowder does. Dave Rubin has Locals, which is a different variation. And this seems becoming much more popular now. Not just I mean, the Patreon model and Supercast and whatever else, but also the idea of people building it for themselves, keeping it on their own real estate on their own domain and implementing it. And that’s what you were talking about really, wasn’t it? It was finding the right tools to keep it on schoolofpodcasting.com. But this model of subscriptions and running it yourself. Do you see that growing in importance as an income stream a good income stream for show creators moving forward from here in 2021?

Dave Jackson 58:43
In terms of a membership site, sure. Because again, if you have a niche, you know, Haley Radke does a show called Adoptees On because the only people that understand what it’s like to be adopted are people that are adopted. Lee Silverstein does the used to be called the Colon Cancer Podcast. Now it’s called We Have Cancer. The only people that understand what it’s like to have cancer are people that have cancer. And when you can create a community for those people to hang out in a safe place, don’t have to worry about triggering other people and things like they can talk about those subjects that’s valuable. Now, with my membership site, it’s a course there, there are courses but I also have a community. And so when you can, people will pay to be transformed and people will pay for stuff that they get for free. They will pay for that. And if you don’t believe me, you can watch the Wizard of Oz on TV or you can buy it from Amazon. So people will pay for things that they get for free. But really what they’re they’re going to pull their money out of their wallet for is when the pain of I don’t know how to start a podcast. I got this technology. I don’t know how to plug it in. I’m frustrated. I’m ready to throw this computer out the window. When that pain is greater than the pain of pulling out your credit card and making that learning curve go away. Then you will go with the I’m going to pull out my credit card. So when you’re solving a problem for them, that’s where courses come into play. Memberships then come into play, things like that. So and what’s great about it is they come for the pain relief, for lack of a better phrase, and they stay for the community, I have people, I have a guy. One of the things I did the last couple of weeks is I did one on one, just let’s get to know each other kind of talks with with members of my audience. And one of them was a member of the School Of Podcasting. So this guy has been paying me, you know, 50 bucks a month for a while. And he said, it’s money well worth it. He goes, because I know when I have a question, I can email you and I’m going to get an an answer. He goes, worst case scenario, 24 hours, he goes, sometimes it’s 24 minutes, he goes, You must live in front of a computer, he goes, and that’s worth it to me. So it’s you, they come for the information, but they stay for the community, that’s one of the things that I’ve actually work at is, you know, making sure the community is a safe place. So, go ahead.

Simon Aronowitz 1:01:04
No, I think you’re right, especially when you talk about community, this is something I think a lot of creators, actually, they don’t put enough value on the need to nurture your community. They think that oh, well, if I have this upsell, or if I have this free group, oh that’s fine to let everybody just manage it themselves. No, you have to play a part. I mean, most people have not translated in their minds what networking is when it comes to being online. And if you’re a physical event, networking is working in a room and delivering value to everybody. So they remember you for not trying to sell yourself to them. Basically, it’s having a great conversation where both people enjoyed the game of tennis. And actually, they won, because they got more out of you than you got out of them in terms of value. And if you work a room like that delivering value to everybody connecting each other, answering their questions, then they all remember you when you’ve worked the room. But people, a lot of people think that just having a free community or having even a paid community or stepping up from a free one to a paid one is easy just by having it there. And they’re not putting the effort into nurture it, to engage with it to feed it to provide unique content so that they want to step up to that behind paywall community, and we’re still working out what our next stage will be at Get Super Cereal and with The Show Business Show. And we don’t once we know that there’s room for more than one show about how to profit from your podcasts, Dave, different people have different perspectives. So I think if we were to come at it, we might do modules or courses on here’s how you actually set up the craziness of Infusionsoft or Campaign Monitor or Direct Response. But more [Inaudible]…

Billy Fansler 1:02:45
More of the actual behind the behind the scenes of a membership site. How to get that, if we’re looking at one of our clients, we’re using Active Member 360, that’s what it is.

Simon Aronowitz 1:02:57
Yeah. But yeah…

Billy Fansler 1:03:00
On that nurturing on that nurturing of the community, like, everybody’s joined these free Facebook groups, and you know, especially when they first launch, like, they’re super active for about like two to three weeks, and then like you eventually forget, they even exist, because they’re not actually being nurtured.

Simon Aronowitz 1:03:19
So, Dave, have you…[Inaudible]…

Billy Fansler 1:03:22
Your clients that are starting to usw Facebook groups? What what type of advice Are you giving them to, like nurture that community?

Dave Jackson 1:03:31
Well, number one, it’s not a case where, okay, hey, we have a private Facebook group, you know, go ahead and join, you’ve got to go over there. I know, I have a weight loss Facebook group, that we have Motivational Monday, we have Weigh-In Wednesday… there are things that we do on a regular basis. And then it’s just a matter of, hey, I found this cool article, does anybody, you’re basically talking to them, you can’t just go here, everybody waiting this room over here, I’m going to be over here doing this other stuff, but talk amongst yourselves.That might work years from now when they get to know each other, but when you’re first starting out, you’ve got to stoke that fire and get it going. So it takes a little while. And it’s odd when it’s for people, you know, when you first start out, but on the other hand, you can now make this really great connection because it’s…

Simon Aronowitz 1:04:19
Exactly you can work those four people until one of them wants to upgrade. And you know, that this is what what I see quite often Dave and you said this before, about if you don’t tell people that you’re a public speaker, and it’s not necessarily being absolutely specific, but you get calls to action. You understand call to action as marketers, we understand a call to action. Instead of saying I’ve got this free private Facebook group, tell them exactly what they’re going to get from it or what you’re delivering there today. And this is what you hear from the likes of Tim Poole and Dave Rubin and others who might be online pundits, but they’ll say today behind the paywall, we’ll be having a conversation about why white flour is racist, or whatever it is, you know, as opposed to wholemeal flour. So people are like, oh, I want to get into that conversation and like and it’s, you know, it’s free to watch the conversation, but it will cost you if you want to participate in a conversation, which I think is, is one more thing where things are going, which is if people have to pay to travel you, they have to really want to troll you. Which, you know, micropayments, it might be one Satoshi, but it’s still 1out of their pocket. And it puts up a bit of a barrier to that. But I think it’s very important to be specific, tell people what they’re going to get. And then if something happens in your group, you can talk about that on your next show and say, Well, here’s what you missed. And again, it’s being specific, it’s constant. It’s constantly marketing it. And, you know, we started off talking about hustling at the beginning of the show. And you hustled, with your lemonade stand, I was thinking you’re not making any money with your bicycle, as you said. But if you were to start again, delivering cups of lemonade, you might be able to make the bike pay for itself, Dave. But to launch a show, to grow a show to keep to keep bringing new eyeballs to your video show war new air balls, as they say, on Archer to your podcast on the platforms, you’ve got to hustle. And, you know, LinkedIn is a really big part of that there’s so many people that think I’ve done my show and they’re exhausted, and they forgot to tell anybody, or they put it in a directory, or they might email it out, or they pay for an ad read or whatever it is. But you’ve got seven things in your book about making your show, seven ways to be profitable with your show. What you didn’t really cover is how you have to be full spectrum dominant. And you’re hustling all the time, because you’re basically Chief Marketing Officer for your show. And the show, the show is one thing, but if you want to be profitable, you have to treat it like a business. You have to market it, you’ve got to network with people, you’ve got to find a reason for people to come get it if it’s not working. If we write an email and it didn’t get opened or didn’t get clicked on, you got to think about how do you change that in the next email, in the next sequence. The equivalent with your episode, if you’re if your downloads go down, if your numbers are dropping off, what what do you do? It’s hustle. And actually, Billy and I, what we really enjoy is, is the hustle when you’ve got something good to hustle about. And this is why we love producing, we love producing great shows. I love nothing more than than sitting here pushing the buttons while I see a client doing the very best that they can. But also clients don’t always listen to you. And so we love it when we get to do exactly what we want. And we if we forget something, it’s because we screwed it up. But we’re so proud of it. We want to go and hustle and tell everybody about it. And that’s where a lot of people forget. And I think that’s a big missing piece two, making your show successful and then being able to make profits from it. So Dave, how do you hustle for your show today?

Dave Jackson 1:07:51
I come on podcasts that are on episode number two, where other people like, not going on your show until episode 20. That’s one, I’ll take that risk. It really boils down to because, so many people like why use social that only works if you’re growing your social. If you have a serious effort to grow your Twitter, we’ll just use Twitter, well, then you better be adding new people to Twitter, because growing your podcast isn’t just using social, you have to figure out number one, who is my audience? Again, crystal clear who is this for? Where are they? And where are they that they don’t know me yet. Because I can go into, you know, the Facebook group and podcast movement and say something. And without sounding like a complete douchebag. A lot of people in that group know who I am. So that’s really not going to get me but if I find that…I’ll give you an example. I went to a thing, again, this dates myself, but it was at a library. It was a live event.

Simon Aronowitz 1:08:49
I remember those.

Dave Jackson 1:08:51
Yes. And this was for people that wanted, it was an SEO/LinkedIn kind of thing. And so it was people that were looking to grow their business and get more exposure via SEO. And I was like, Oh, you know, a good way to do that…a podcast. And all I did was I had one question. So the things over, any questions from the audience? And I said, Yeah, I’m Dave Jackson from the School Of Podcasting. I had a question about keywords and bla bla and {Inaudible]. That’s all I said, that was my pitch. I’m Dave Jackson from the School Of Podcasting. Five people at the end of that came up and go, so you’re a podcast guy. So you have to figure out, but they didn’t know who I was. So you have to figure out where is my audience that doesn’t know me yet. Because otherwise you’re just preaching to the choir. And that again, is not easy. That’s where that you have to figure it out. And it’s going to take a couple swipes and you know, sometimes you go to a book event and find out that you know what, maybe authors aren’t my target audience. You know, you try different things, but that’s for me, I’m just always looking for, you know, where’s my audience that doesn’t know me yet. And then when I go there, bring value. Don’t walk in, one of my favorite stores. This is like 2006. This is before Facebook. And I found a forum of ex DJs. And I swear when I, when I found it, I heard like angels like, Ahhhh, I’m like, these are people that want to get back on the air. And I walked in, and I’m like, Hey, I’m Dave Jackson from the School Of Podcasting. Man, this looks like a great forum, you should come over to my website, and like, you can get back on the air and blah, blah, blah, blah. They banned me within 20 minutes. Because I didn’t create, I didn’t create any kind of relationships. I was just this spamming idiot spewing come buy my stuff. And so you have to figure out where your audiences that doesn’t know you make friends with them deliver value, and then tell them about your podcast and people go, well, that sounds like it’s time consuming. And I go, Uh-huh.

Simon Aronowitz 1:10:45
Uh huh. Yeah. And that’s one of the things that we do for our clients is we can handle their social will take the time to understand who to target and what the right take his on the content, what you were saying about your really quick opener at that at that library event. Dave, makes me think about how if you’ve ever been to a BNI event, almost nobody who goes to BNI, Business Networking International, understands the correct way to deliver their 62nd intro because all they do is talk about themselves instead of talk to the other people in the room about why you might be interested in them. And I think that’s probably an episode all on its own because it’s about attraction marketing. And the other idea that I had about you getting more people to come to your podcast meetups is change the name to a Gitmo Nation meetup, and then have it read out on No Agenda.

Simon Aronowitz 1:11:29
So, Dave, as I look at the clock. I see that we’re over the hour. And I know that you’ve got to run a pod fest. So we’ve got, that is today, isn’t it?

Dave Jackson 1:11:39
I got 20 minutes. And I got a, actually let me let me, this is [Inaudible}. No, we’re good. We can actually go over now. Because the thing at 9;30 got pushed back slightly.

Simon Aronowitz 1:11:50
Okay. Well, we try to avoid post if at all possible. Yeah, we will say to the people…

Billy Fansler 1:11:56
This will be on the air. Yeah.

Dave Jackson 1:11:58
There you go.Yeah, so we’re good.

Simon Aronowitz 1:12:00
And, and it’s it’s more fun. As we say to our clients, “Look, if you screw up the intro, if you screw up the first 30 seconds, we’ll start again, you’ll get a mulligan.” We did that ourselves this morning a couple of times. But once you get going…

Billy Fansler 1:12:13
Remember when, remember a few minutes ago, and Simon was saying how the things that we actually do enjoy, one of the things we do not enjoy is the post production, which is why we just keep rolling for the most part.

Simon Aronowitz 1:12:28
So actually to explain to people give a little bit of behind the scenes how we make our sausage today is we’re running basic controls so that Dave knows what we’re playing. The final mix, we actually as soon as we’ve done recording, we’re going to turn around and remix it with all the lower thirds and make sure the shots are exactly what we want. Because we want to focus not on the visuals while we’re talking today. We want to focus on listening to Dave and coming up with the best question to keep the to keep the serve going, to keep the ping-pong going. Because that that’s the best way to have an interview is to stop and listen. It’s something that is taken me years to perfect and I’m still working on it. Some people have told me I never listen. They obviously never hear me when I say I think I do.

Dave Jackson 1:13:15
Well, what you’ve done is I call it a seesaw. And on one end of the seesaw, you have planning. So if you do a lot of planning, then you do very little editing. If you do no planning, then you’re going to be doing a whole lot of editing later. And so obviously you have done your homework and then some so hence you can do a live show without having to go back and remove all the stuff that was boring because you did your planning. So that’s the beauty of your approach.

Simon Aronowitz 1:13:42
Well, post production is truly hell, but re-mixing a show that you’ve just recorded. Actually, there’s a benefit to that because you get to hear stuff you didn’t hear the first time because the adrenaline pumps and you can think about how you’re going to clip it. And that’s another big thing, by the way, they were video first, in part. And this gets into the clip that we’re going to play from Stephen Crowder and Dave Rubin. But because we’re video first, we’ll actually be seen on Facebook and YouTube and Twitter and wherever else in people’s timelines. And if they’re sitting, say at Urgent Care, or they’re sitting, I would have said a year and a half ago, at the mall. Guys waiting at the mall, while his wife was doing the shopping. And we all know how soul destroying that is. And you’re looking for some entertainment, which is why they have man caves and all sorts of things like you know, they actually have ladies hair salons where there’s an entire half of the places Sony PlayStations and Lazy boys and Virtual Reality to keep the husband there and they’ll sell him a bear or something so they actually make more money out of it. But if you’re sitting there wanting to be entertained, you’re not going to stop at a Buzzsprout audio waveform clip. It’s not going to stop in your tracks ever. And Joe Rogan talks about this. And we brought that up with James Cridland last week because he wanted you know like the Elon Musk video clip It would bring a lot of people to the show. And that’s why we produce this video first. Because also Dave, as you know, twice as many people are on Facebook as listening to podcasts in the United States. That’s the most recent numbers, because a lot of it is about discovery. Once you discover a show, you might well listen to the podcast even though you know there’s a video version because it’s so convenient. I mean, here’s my cell phone. I wake up in the morning and there’s stuff here for me to listen to while I’m having my coffee. And it’s a lot easier than me trying to watch it. So discovery is a is a big thing for what do you think about that? Because you’re really an audio guy rather than video. Before we play the clip. What do you think about video? Do you think it’s gonna get more important?

Dave Jackson 1:15:39
I, it’s almost two separate audiences, because I know people on YouTube that, like worship the top YouTube guys, and they have no idea who Mark Marin is. And then you have the people in the podcast space that are all about Joe Rogan and Mark Marin and Adam Carolla, and they have no who you know who is Casey Neistat? What? Who? I’ve never heard of that guy. I think it’s almost two separate audiences. Yeah, exactly. And so that’s why I started doing stuff on YouTube. I was like, oh, there’s a whole bunch of other people over here that that don’t know me again, go into where your audience is that they don’t know you yet. So I think video can be handy. I’m with you. I don’t think the squiggly line as much as it’s cool. And it’s fun. I’ve known a few people that have done tests on those. And in many cases, again, if you’re just blasting that to your social, what happens is people go, Oh, you have a new episode out. And it’s probably already a subscriber. That’s what Scott Johnson does. What was that like? And he put a thing out, hey, this guy crashed his plane into the middle of the jungle. And I was like, oh, cool. There’s a new episode out and I went right to my phone. I’m already subscribed. All that did was notify me that there’s a new episode, what that really should be used for his for your audience to then share. That’s where I think that tool comes in handy. And you almost need to then put that hey, if you you know, tell your audience, hey, I put a video clip out, can you do me a favor and share that with your audience? You really have to tell them what to do. And they will do it because they like you. But if you just put it out there and go look, isn’t that cool? They’re like, oh, yeah, it’s cool. It needs to say, oh, and share that with your friends. So I can definitely see where video. You know, it’s on everything now. I mean, it’s You can’t escape it. So but I also don’t say audio is going away.

Billy Fansler 1:17:22
What about covering both of them with the video and audio?

Dave Jackson 1:17:27
It’s good. But for example, at the beginning of this show, you had your intro with the cool lights and everything like that. In audio, that’s my favorite pet peeve called music for the sake of nothing. Well, listen, it’s like today on the show, we’re gonna do such and such. neh, neh, neh neh, and it goes on for 30 seconds, and you’re like, are they ever coming back? So in the audio version, I would like fade that out and have you, where you, yeah, haven’t come in. So everything doesnt work on every platform.

Simon Aronowitz 1:17:56
We’re still looking at that. I mean, we it was only a 16 second intro, so it’s not too bad. Yeah. We couldn’t find, unlike the School Of Podcasting with Dave Jackson, we couldn’t find the Andrews Sisters to do it for us at a reasonable price. But I do have an eight year old niece. So there’s the trade secrets on who says, “Get Super Cereal.”

Dave Jackson 1:18:16
That’s it.

Simon Aronowitz 1:18:18
But, you know, as far as this discovery, I mean, I think, especially if you got a good production team behind you, you can do audio and video. Well, at the same time, James Cridland doesn’t agree. But I do think that the idea of having a clip is a great way of growing your audience is what Rogan talks about. I mean Rogan forced Spotify to create the video feature, and this is why we think video is going to be bigger, because as we heard last week, Spotify and Anchor are opening that up now to more podcasters. I think Apple might go the same way. And yet, we shouldn’t dismiss, as I say this clip coming out from Stephen Crowder, and James Cridland will say that people are like Crowder, you know, they’re celebrities. But Crowder started on the internet, the same as we are right now. So did Tim Poole. So did Alex Jones. So did everybody else started from nowhere? And they were some some dude who complained on the internet when they started and now they’re they’re making is a you know, success of themselves. And they have a career and they get to pick and choose which platforms they they adopt him that they put their stuff on, or that they don’t. And that’s why this clip of Stephen Crowder, talking to Dave Rubin because Stephen Crowder is currently fighting a legal battle against Facebook. I’m not sure if you’re aware of that. So, we’ll play this this clip.

Dave Rubin 1:19:40
So, do you think you could ever get to the point of popularity numbers, monetization, whatever you want to call it, that you would just be like, “Alright, I don’t want to do the legal route anymore.” We’re not getting anywhere or it’s a strain and stress and everything else and I’m just gonna be free meaning I’ll be on the Blaze, or whatever else there might be…and just not deal with this nonsense.

Stephen Crowder 1:20:03
I could probably do that now, in the sense that if I just,we were just talking about surviving and keeping my people employed, I could probably do that now, because we have a lot of people who support us and who join up with Mug Club. But we’ve always said that we want to make sure that, you know, the supporting content is what allows the free content. You know, for me, my goal is always to have as many people out there who at least are, whether or not they’re conservative, free speech advocates. You know, for me, I’m a simple guy, I’m pretty right wing, but first amendment, second amendment, especially coming from a country that has neither, Canada, are pretty important to me. To give you an analogy, you know, I always talked about this where…I’m big into firearms, but I’m not a collector, I’m not a maven. What I would rather see out there are 50 people with one firearm than one person with 50. I want more people comfortable around firearms, those who’ve taken basic firearm safety courses, who understand how firearms work, because once that happens, you know, you can no longer have Joe Biden go up and say an AR 14 is a is a machine gun. First off, he meant AR 15, not 14. And it’s not a machine gun, it’s a semi automatic, just like any other handgun. So for me, it’s really important to be on YouTube and be on Facebook and be on Twitter, to reach new people and to create new free speech advocates and new firearm owners. New conservatives, people who will understand what this country was founded on and continue those values forward. So could I leave, take my ball and go home and, and and make enough to live comfortably with the people who will support us? Probably, but we’re not going to be reaching any new hearts and minds. So for as long as I can be on those platforms. And even if I’m just a thorn in their side, that’s a good thing that tells me that we’re reaching a lot of folks.

Simon Aronowitz 1:21:43
So Dave, what do you what do you think about what Stephen Crowder was saying there with with Dave Rubin, about the opportunities that exists by being on an on a network and being selective. He could he could survive financially without being on YouTube, he doesn’t need the advertising money, but he sees it as a way of reaching new people. And by the way, I’m not playing that because I believe everybody should own firearms. It’s not about firearms discussion. By the way, it’s not about firearms, it’s about having an opinion that is perfectly legal and safe to have. And then being able to reach other people with that viewpoint that they might be sympathetic to.

Dave Jackson 1:22:22
Yeah, it really. And that’s kind of the thing that’s has me worried these days is with all the deep platforming of people, because apparently opinions are now illegal, especially if it’s not with, you know, the mainstream media or things like that. So, I’m kind of with him be everywhere you can be and but that’s, again, why I really love podcasting. You can take me off YouTube, as long as I have an RSS feed. I’m good to go. Now, granted, I’ve now got to add a page to my website that shows people how to manually subscribe to a podcast, because if you pull me out of Apple and Google and everything else, but as long as I got that RSS feed, I’m still in the game. And that’s really all I want to be. But the thing I liked about that clip, is whether you agree or not, man, that guy voiced an opinion. Like that was an opinion that either you went, What?” or you went, “Amen, brother!” I mean, that was not a middle of the road thing. That guy like drew his line in the sand, and said, This is what I believe and blah, blah, blah, and you either agreed with him or you didn’t. And that would then, that line right there would lead to some interesting conversation. sthat was not boring. And that’s really the bottom line of podcasting, is don’t be boring.

Simon Aronowitz 1:23:38
And, and that two minute clip that I played there, that might actually drive more people, Dave, towards Stephen Crowder show or towards Dave Rubin for facilitating that discussion. Which is why we see the wider aspects of YouTube, or Facebook or Twitter. I mean, Twitter is incredibly cheap to advertise on compared to Facebook, it’s somewhere between one third and one half the price to reach the same person. And it turns out, you might get better results, if you pay for it note read on a show, by the way. It’s a value for value, you know the equivalent, but this is why I think that video can play a huge part and also not to dismiss those, what I mean, YouTube wasn’t legacy in 2006 when it was created. But it’s kind of legacy social media now with companies like Rumball setting up. But it’s not to dismiss them. And I mean, do you do anything with YouTube, Dave as really an audio only guy?

Dave Jackson 1:24:36
Yeah, I do little baby clips. If you go to my YouTube channel, it says new video every Wednesday right now, that is a blatant lie. And that’s because as the old saying goes, you’re mentioning how a lot of your projects, you’re busy working on other people’s stuff sometimes to do your own and that’s what the situation I’m in right now. I’m like even, you know, a five minute video takes me, you know, an hour by the time I get the lights setup and it’s just a hassle. Well, it’s not a hassle, but it’s just one of those things that right now I’m not doing. But yeah, I do. And the thing I love about YouTube versus a podcast is you will get feedback. Boy, if you’re looking for some feedback, start a YouTube channel. Every day, I have a microphone shootout. It’s a pod, pod mic versus a Zoom…something…1…blah, blah, blah microphone. And every day I have somebody that will comment on that say, I think the pod, I think the Rode sounded better. And then the next day, somebody will say, I think the Zoom sounded better. And then they fight amongst themselves. So, that’s interesting, but people are not shy on YouTube, they will let you know, if they like you. And if they don’t like you, they’re very verbal about that. So, if you have thin skin, don’t start a YouTube channel. But for me, I love all feedback, whether it’s good or bad. So that’s, that’s another bonus. The disadvantage of YouTube is if I’m doing something that you really need to watch, so if I’m showing you how to plug a microphone into a mixer, if I’m showing you how to do woodworking or cooking or something, you got to watch that and you can’t watch my YouTube channel while you’re driving to the store. But you can listen to my podcast, if I’m not doing something again, that’s super visual, in the in the car. So, that’s I always say that the bloggers I’m like, I love your blog. I can’t read it in the car, but I could listen to it if it was a podcast. So there are pros and cons to each one.

Billy Fansler 1:26:23
I think one of the big benefits of video is the advertising opportunity to be able to clip the video and then put it in front of your audience. Because I mean, I kind of see shows as like top of the funnel type of content. And continually putting the clips of your show and the best bits of your show in front of the people that have already seen your show to begin with, is like that’s how you just move them down the funnel if you’re trying to monetize.

Simon Aronowitz 1:26:53
And the retargeting opportunities as well, on Facebook, for example, that it’s very difficult to retarget specific activity, but engagement in specific videos and just videos is one of the things that you can retarget to know you’re only going to be showing, for example, a sales message to people who’ve watched, say at least 50% of your video clip, or 100%. And therefore, they already know what you’re talking about. And like I said, YouTube is not the be all and end all there’s Facebook. And there’s other things besides. And this gets back into what we were talking about earlier, that if you’re an audio first podcaster like yourself, Dave, or like the majority of podcast today, the vast majority are audio only. But now with tools like Riverside FM or squad cast, if they let you take a video feed at the same time, the now you have the opportunity to take a two minute clip of of your audio and find the video feeds of that and actually make a video clip of it. And I think that if you don’t want to focus on, because producing a video show is a lot more complicated than audio, you have to, although I will actually say having produced stuff before that, if you put visuals in front of people, they focus less on the breathing and the tics and everything. I was very self conscious when I was only focused on audio and I was just reading like a video sales page or equivalent. And I would notice every tic, every tot, every plosive, every breath. And when I did it on camera instead and teleprompters with visuals as I went, how I built my own teleprompter and did the whole thing with it, that’s for another day. But, you more distracted so you don’t notice all the audio. And if you’re if you’re going to the simpler route of audio, podcast, if you do it with something like Riverside.fm…we should probably get a promo code for them, Billy, if we’re going to keep talking about it.

Billy Fansler 1:28:46

Simon Aronowitz 1:28:47
Or Squadcast. That you can still record it. And we recommended it to these guys yesterday who were actually hooking up via Zoom but then recording audio locally on their PCs. And then they had the three claps and then they would sync it up in post. And we said you don’t have to do half of that if you just sign up for Riverside.fm or for Squadcast. So, if you then switch on the camera recording facility, now you can have a viral clip as well. If you’ve got great content, you want to reach twice as many people as you currently think you can with your podcast, for the love of all that is holy, get a 60 second two minute clip out there. And put some money behind it so that you have a chance of reaching new people who maybe don’t listen to podcasts.

Dave Jackson 1:29:32
Yeah, you can go from, you can record a video and pull the audio out of that. I can’t take an audio file and pull a moving video.. I can put an artwork or whatever but that’s boring. But when you start with video, you can go any way you want. When you start with audio only. You’re kind of stuck with audio only. So that’s you’re missing out. But on the other hand, you know you don’t have to buy lights, you don’t have to shower you don’t have to put makeup on. So, there are pros and cons to each. But, definitely if you start with video, you have more opportunity to do more things with that content than you do if you’re doing audio only. And likewise, if you do a blog only, that’s really limited, you’re gonna have people that are going to, you have to read this sorry, that’s the only way you can consume it. So when you start with a video, you can convert it to audio, you can have it transcribed, you can have it a blog, whatever you want. So that is the advantage of starting with video.

Simon Aronowitz 1:30:30
Yeah, the idea is to go multimodal with the content. I mean, there are some news operations online. For example, Alex Jones, that when he went much more into video, he used to have written articles on his website, and instead of just post the video. And if I come across an Alex Jones story on my travels, and I get to his website, it’s a 20 minute video. And there’s there’s one sentence about it and it doesn’t tell you what you’re going to find out in a video. I’m like to hell with it, I don’t have 20 minutes to listen to Alex ranting on about male vitality and everything else before he gets to the point. Why don’t you write an article to go with the video? Because now you can consume it in different ways. And that’s something that we’ve talked about for a long time with clients about their marketing. So, I agree with you, Dave, but of course, it’s all more effort. Maybe this is why production companies…

Dave Jackson 1:31:15
Wait, it’s not easy?

Simon Aronowitz 1:31:17
No, it’s not easy, but this is why [Inaudible] production companies…

Dave Jackson 1:31:22

Simon Aronowitz 1:31:23

Dave Jackson 1:31:23
Let you do what you do. And…

Simon Aronowitz 1:31:27
If you need help with your videos, Dave, if you had us and literally, because it should when we’re running the desk for other people, it’s hit the link come in, and we can start after a quick sound check and check the lower thirds are correct. So, we got the information, what’s the running order, we’re good to go. And then as our clients know, they walk away when it’s done, and then two days later their shows up.

Dave Jackson 1:31:51
There you go.

Billy Fansler 1:31:52
And up and everywhere. It’s on Twitter and LinkedIn.

Simon Aronowitz 1:31:59
This is what, the idea is that the most of the money in podcasting, is in advertising. And I said to you, it’s perceived. Actually, I think a lot of the money in podcasting right now is in these ancillary services. As I said to James Cridland, last week, with the actual Gold Rush, most people made their money out of selling jeans and shovels. They didn’t find any gold. And I guess we’re the peddlers of jeans and shovels.

Dave Jackson 1:32:24
That’s it. People go, “How do I make money in podcasting?” Oh, easy…learn how to edit. That’s it! You know, in the States every other block, it’s a QVC, or a CVS, it’s a drugstore. And in podcasting about every 10 feet, you run into an editor. And some of that is good. And some of that is really, wow, holy cow, that’s bad. So, be careful with that. So that’s [Inaudible].

Simon Aronowitz 1:32:46
So Dave, that’s your number one takeaway for us to finish the show with today is…if you want to make money out of podcasting, start editing.

Dave Jackson 1:32:56
Or, well, that’s neat. But even that, again, to be good at it takes time. So, but the early days of podcasting, those were the people that were making money with it. Because, and this is the one thing we haven’t talked about yet, step one of making money with your podcast, is get an audience. You have to get an audience, I have so many people that I run…I had somebody yesterday that hasn’t even launched the podcast yet. And it’s kind of good, because she said it’s a business. I said, “Is it a hobby or business?” “Well, I’d like to make money with this.” Great. But all of her focus was like, “How am I going to make money? How am I going to make money?” i’m like, “Hold on, we need to figure out who am I talking to? And what how are we going to make content that’s so good that they have to tell their friends. I’m like that’s what we need to focus on first. It’s great when we can shape our content to position you as an expert. But step one is get an audience.” And I see so many people when they start off…I did an episode a while ago, at the beginning of the year, because every year…I’m not making this up…I have people that contact me they say, ‘I want to start a podcast and quit my day job in six weeks.’ And I go, ‘Unless you have an audience already. That ain’t gonna happen.” And so, I did an episode that said, “If this is you, and you also say, ‘Wait, I have to put out $15 a week for media hosting?’ ” And they go “Hmm, boy $15, hmm?” And I go “If $15 is going to break the bank, you don’t need a podcast, you need a job. And my guess is the $15 is going to ruin your budget, I’m gonna guess your family life right now isn’t a whole lot of, you know, a lot of fun. And starting a podcast is not gonna help that situation either.” So, it’s one of those things that, you know, we all want to…I start to throw up on my mouth a little bit when I hear people like, “Escape the cubicle life and you know, empower you blah, blah” and I’m like, “Okay, but that sounds great.” But those people are selling hope. And it’s like, “Come on kids. It’s it’s not that easy.” If it was that easy wouldn’t everybody be making a million dollars with their podcast?

Simon Aronowitz 1:34:52
So, exactly. Everybody wants to make $500 working part time from home, you know, as a sideline job. And again, I think there’s a story there for another episode. But Dave, I wanted to pick up on just one thing that you said, which was, I think you said was, make it good enough so that people want to share it. And this is something that we’ve known for years with social media that seems to just go over the heads of a lot of people who are doing social media professionally, whether it’s for their own business that they work in or own or whether they’re doing it for a client. If your social media content isn’t remarkable, then why are you doing it in the first place? If it’s that bad? If it’s not going to get anybody to like it, or share it or leave a comment, if it’s so milk toast, that even with a lot of money behind it, nobody gives a toot about your content, why do you keep putting it out? Because it’s not doing anything for you..taking your time, it’s taking your money. And when we had the shackles taken off of us at a previous employer, and we said, “To hell with it! Let’s just go for it and create stuff that we think is going to entertain instead of being vanilla. Because we’re on our way out anyway, so let’s actually do what we think will work.” We saw massive engagement after years of it being so pathetic, nobody cared. Because how do you stop a lawyer in their tracks on Facebook, with something that they’re like, “Ah, you got me on that one.” And it’s not gonna be, “Here’s one tip to get one extra client in the next seven days.” They don’t care, they really don’t care. Your content has to stop people in their tracks, which literally is what happens on social media, when again, they’re scrolling through the timeline. And what I now find I’m doing producing this show and clips for other shows, is if I, if I hear something that’s so good, I have to stop it. And then, I put the timecode on my whiteboard, because I have to go back in and clip it later. If you can’t generate that response, in somebody who’s listening to your show, or watching your show, then I would suggest you look again at what content you’re doing. And this is where that’s it. This is where your checks come in, isn’t it Dave? I mean, it must be one of those. It’s not just about audio quality. It’s about the content.

Dave Jackson 1:37:06
It really is it’s you know, whether it’s golf or bowling. If you think about it, both those sports involve a lot of little, you know, if you have your wrist the wrong way, when you’re bowling your your balls, not going to go where it is. If you lift your head up, when you’re golfing, it’s gonna go the wrong way. So it’s a lot of moving parts that come together, when you create a podcast. It’s, you know, I remember once again, my background was in teaching. And there was a podcast made for people that taught technology. And I was like, “Oh, my gosh, that’s me.” And it sounded like it was recorded underwater while they were frying bacon in the background. And I just, I sat down, I was like, “Oh, you got to be kidding me.” This is…I want this content so bad. And it was just I was like (imitates muffled sound), Okay, that’s enough of that. And then I’ve also heard podcasts, I remember once it was again about training and technology. And the guy spent the first seven minutes of his podcast talking about how much he hated Bob Seger. And I just kept thinking, surely, he’s going to get to the content eventually. I mean, and he just kept going on. And I was like, after, like, I looked up, and I could see that I’ve been listening for seven minutes. And I was like, “Okay, now you made me upset, because you’re wasting my time.” So it is, you’ve got to know who your audience is. Make it sound great, make it look great, if you’re doing video, and then get to the meat and potatoes. My favorite example of this, is if you are now watching a series of some sort on Netflix, and at the end, it has skipped credits. And when you say “Yes, skip the credits.” It not only skips the credits, it skips the intro of the next episode. And go, so you go from meat and potatoes, to meat and potatoes. And I’m like, if you don’t believe me when I say people want to get to the content, Exhibit A…Netflix. And I think they have a pretty good idea of what people want. So, it’s a lot of different things to to really strike gold.

Dave Jackson 1:38:54
I will say though, Dave, for that guy who had a seven minute rant about Bob Seger, at least he got an emotional response out of you. So it wasn’t what he wanted.

Billy Fansler 1:39:03
And you’re talking about it today.

Simon Aronowitz 1:39:06
And you’re talking about it today. So, because Billy and I have played this game for years, which is, “Look at these, you know, these a-holes are what they’re saying.” Well, we’re talking about it, it worked. So, yeah, I mean, on that note, I mean, Dave, we were gonna have to have you back. We might, as I said to James Cridland last week, have some people back regular to ride shotgun. And I think setting up a panel discussion with several guys from the industry, from different angles, in the coming weeks. If we can set something up like that, timing is going to be challenging, but we’re looking to push the envelope out to help people understand how they can make money in producing a show. We’re not trying to mislead people with selling them hope that doesn’t exist. We’re hoping that we can be a good source for what’s proven to work, what new ideas are being looked out and what new technologies are being tested. And here’s a behind the scenes on on how to deal with that. So we’re hoping that you’ll come back and join us in in a few weeks time.

Dave Jackson 1:40:03
You do not have to twist my arm hard to come back and talk about podcasting, so I’d be happy to.

Simon Aronowitz 1:40:09

Billy Fansler 1:40:09
So, it won’t be Episode Two. It’s gonna be like episode…

Dave Jackson 1:40:13
Episode 5!

Billy Fansler 1:40:15
It’s gonna be something with even more credit. Yeah, there you go.

Simon Aronowitz 1:40:20
So James…not James…Dave! I keep thinking about James Cridland. So, Dave, apologies. You’re obviously not James unless it’s your middle name, but…

Dave Jackson 1:40:30
If I could be anybody, I’d want to be James Cridland. You know what I mean? It’s like, so if you’re gonna call me somebody’s name, I’ll take James Cridland. That’s, I love that guy.

Simon Aronowitz 1:40:40
Well, as opposed to Pete. With one of our other clients, his last name is Primeau. And so people keep calling him after the Canadian hockey player, instead of calling Keith instead of Pete. So. So Dave, take a moment tell everybody how they can find you. And what do you want them to keep an eye out for if they go there?

Simon Aronowitz 1:41:01
Well, we’ll send them to schoolofpodcasting.com if you want to start. We’ll give two… I’m going to do a horrible two calls to action. I know I’m going to break my own rules here. School Of Podcasting is my main site. That’s where you can kind of find all things Dave. But if you’re interested in that book that’s been sitting behind me, you can find that at profitfromyourpodcast.com.

Simon Aronowitz 1:41:19
Okay, and like I said, for people listening, we have lower thirds up, because that’s what we do. We have titles on the screen. We try to make them conceptual. So when somebody says a website, we have the title on the page. So, Dave, thank you so much for joining us today. We’re gonna let you go off to your virtual pod fest. We hope that becomes a real pod fest very, very soon. Because, you know, we’ve done a lot of events and networking in real life, I think it is more wanted than ever. So, Dave, thank you for joining us.

Dave Jackson 1:41:54
Thanks for having me. This is great.

Simon Aronowitz 1:41:57
So, this was Episode Two of The Show Business Show. I’m Simon Aronowitz from Get Super Cereal signing off from London, England.

Billy Fansler 1:42:05
And I’m Billy Fansler, signing off from Durham, North Carolina.


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